Overturn President-elect Donald Trump's criminal convictionExBulletin

SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Donald Trump is officially a criminal and, of course, he's also about to become president of the United States. Ten days before the inauguration, the only closed criminal case against Trump officially ended when New York Judge Juan Merchan sentenced Trump to an absolute discharge eight months after Trump was convicted of falsifying business records. This sentence means no jail time or penalties, but the conviction remains on Trump's record. Trump spoke briefly remotely during the hearing.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

DONALD TRUMP: I am completely innocent. I didn't do anything wrong.

DETROW: Given the current conclusion of Trump's various criminal cases, it made sense to reconvene the Trump's Trials podcast team and discuss it with NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro – hey, Domenico. ..

DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Hey, Scott.

DETROW: …And University of Baltimore law professor Kim Wehle. Hi, Kim.

KIM WEHLE: Hello.

DETROW: Kim, I want to start with you and just your basic reaction to sentencing.

WEHLE: Well, I think the sentencing has to be looked at in connection with the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision on Thursday basically refusing to stay the process, and they said in that decision that unconditional release – the declared intention of the court of first instance to impose this unconditional release justifies not postponing it. So I really think that when Judge Merchan said that was the only option, that was the only option, because if Trump had succeeded in delaying sentencing until after his inauguration, that immunity ruling would have taken effect , and he would have said: I am now a sitting president, you cannot touch me even for conviction. And we would be in four years and all of this would be in the dustbin of history.

DETROW: Is it fair to say that the presidency is stronger and much more immune to the rule of law, based on what has happened over the last two years with these various cases and the rulings of the Supreme Court?

WEHLE: Oh, absolutely. I mean, this summer, the Supreme Court essentially amended the United States Constitution in response to January 6, 2021, and Trump's actions on that day. The Constitution does not create immunity for presidents. This creates immunity for members of Congress. So the creators knew how to do that if they wanted to. And in Article 1, which describes the powers of Congress, it says that in the event of the impeachment of a president, and presumably of a president, criminal prosecution can be brought.

The court therefore ruled otherwise. Essentially, there cannot be criminal prosecutions for official acts, but I don't think anyone would argue that official acts should not be indicted. So I think the Supreme Court really strengthened the power of the Oval Office, potentially on issues that are quite dangerous for the future, and that was in direct response to the alleged criminal activities of Donald Trump.

MONTANARO: I feel like it's a coda or a conclusion to sort of the Watergate era. You know, we haven't really come to any conclusions about the constitutional crises that arose when Richard Nixon was in office because Nixon eventually resigned. And thanks to the Supreme Court's intervention on a lot of this, we've gotten more clarity that the highest court in the land essentially wants to give a lot more ability to a president to do almost what he wants, provided that because it falls within their official capacity. Ironically, they essentially created a sort of pseudo-king.

DETROW: I want to go back to what all this means for Trump's second term, which begins in less than 10 days. But Domenico, I just want to ask you about the politics of the situation right now, now that the New York case is over and the federal cases are, by and large, over now and the Georgia seems all but dead.

You know, we've had several months since the election to think about what happened, to take a look at what voters were telling us. What do you think of the argument that I feel like it gained momentum after Trump's victory, that all of these cases together – and really, the New York case in particular – have really helped Trump solidify Republican support and perhaps helped him return to the White House. ?

MONTANARO: Trump was obviously able to consolidate his power in a primary, certainly, and he was able to insulate himself to be able to say that these are all, quote, “witch hunts.” These are political prosecutions. And the New York case is the only one where we have a conclusion – it's quite surprising, frankly.

You know, I don't know if, if none of these cases are brought, Donald Trump will lose the election. I think we have a very politically divided country, and Trump has certainly succeeded in isolating himself, as I said, and getting people on the right to say that they think all of these things were politically motivated, of all kinds. way. I don't know if that's why he won.

DETROW: Yeah.

MONTANARO: But it certainly helped him get through the primary.

DETROW: Kim, I mean, the phrase lawfare(ph) that people around Trump were talking about, like the idea that the justice system was being used as a political war against Trump – I feel like it's is hardened, and I've heard more and more as Trump returns to power. Whether or not you think that's a fair description, which I don't, the fact that this has really become a mainstream Republican view – what questions does that raise about how the Department of Defense Trump's justice begins to act, once again, in less than 10 days?

WEHLE: Well, the law, ultimately, is about incentives and disincentives. We have laws and constraints to discourage bad behavior, but these constraints mean nothing if there are no consequences. Thus, the Supreme Court, through this process, removed all consequences related to the commission of crimes using official power.

That's what's scary, right? It is not unofficial private power that will lead to real abuses against individuals. This is the power of the Department of Justice. This is the power of the FBI, the IRS, the CIA, the military. This is something that Donald Trump will have at his fingertips that no one else on the planet has. It is this power that must be deterred from being abused, and it has disappeared. So we are truly entering a new era in American history and American law.

DETROW: Last question for both of you: I viewed the conviction in New York as the conclusion of all these legal matters. I think that's true, but there might be an additional coda next week. It is possible that a report from special counsel Jack Smith will be made public, at least a redacted version. This issue is currently being debated in court. I'm not really sure at this point if we're going to see it or not, but I'm going to ask each of you: Kim, what's the biggest question? Is there anything in this report that you would like to know more about or learn from? Or do you think these will be the – generally the facts that we've been talking about for about a year at this point?

WEHLE: Well, according to Donald Trump's lawyers, there's more information, which is why he – they worked so hard to hide it from the public. But I'm interested in the Mar-a-Lago affair. I would like to understand where the classified information has gone. The FBI found empty files. Who got it? Is there a national security threat that has been created in this scenario? I don't think these questions have been debated, let alone answered in any meaningful way.

MONTANARO: You know, I'm going to look up, politically, what kind of statements Jack Smith made about this that are easily digestible for people, what he thought Trump might have been guilty of and what the evidence was that they were. . following.

DETROW: Shortly after recording this conversation, the Justice Department announced that special counsel Jack Smith had resigned. They were law professor Kim Wehle of the University of Baltimore as well as Domenico Montanaro of NPR.

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